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Superintendents Conference, Yosemite - October 16 - Morning Session - 1912

The SECRETARY. Gentlemen, you will please come to order. Now, I think we may as well this morning continue with the matter which we had under discussion last night when we adjourned, but before doing that, perhaps we ought to get into the record the fact that after we adjourned yesterday afternoon, one of those very safe roads that would only take 30 cents to put in shape, spilled a coach over the side and came near hurting seriously a number of people who fortunately escaped, but left the coach in a completely wrecked condition at the bottom of the gulch. Is that correct, Colonel?

Col. FORSYTH. That is correct, sir. They tell me there was scarcely enough left of the coach to repair.

The SECRETARY. How many people were on it and what happened to them; do you know?

Col. FORSYTH. All the passengers were well shaken up. Fortunately the coach turned over at a place where, with one exception, a slight jar was all that was received. One of the gentlemen was pretty badly hurt but no bones were broken, and the whole party were taken into their automobile, which was waiting them at the boundary and which we allowed to come up that half mile to get them and take them on out.

The party had come by motor car from Crockers and from there had staged in and were returning to Crockers by stage and had almost returned when the accident happened. I might add that the grade of that hill is from 12 to 17 per cent.

The SECRETARY. I believe last year as our party returned from the Hetch Hetchy I called your attention to the condition of the road and the very effective barrier it was to the development of the upper part of this park.

Col. FORSYTH. That is the location exactly.

Mr. FRY. Mr. Secretary, may I have the privilege of asking the Colonel what was the cause of the accident?

Col. FORSYTH. The party left so hurriedly that the sergeant did not make any investigation of the cause. The road there is narrow. It was growing dark and whether something unusual caused the horses to shy from the narrow road and go over is a matter of speculation. It is doubtful if the driver knows what caused the horses to shy away.

The SECRETARY. All we know is that the coach went over—don't know the cause at all.

Col. FORSYTH. Not positively; it is a matter of speculation.

The SECRETARY. It merely adds a little emphasis to the engineering questions that are involved in this whole matter of the admission of automobiles and illustrates the absolute necessity of checking things a little more accurately than apparently some of our speakers yesterday were disposed to think. I doubt whether we can accept general engineering views of the character we were offered yesterday as a substitute for exact information on the question of the width and condition of roads in connection with this automobile matter.

Col. FORSYTH. Mr. Secretary, there is one remark I would like to add in this connection, and that is that a mere semblance of a barrier at a dangerous point is not sufficient. The barrier must be one sufficiently substantial that if a coach or a car caroms against it it will withstand the shock. One speaker, yesterday, stated that something that would indicate that the coach couldn't go over there would be sufficient to prevent it.

Mr. MCSTAY. Mr. Secretary, as long as these matters are being made an official record I believe it will be well, if you will pardon me, to mention what road that was. My attention was called to the fact that during this discussion it was not mentioned what road that occurred on.

Col. FORSYTH. That was at the crest of the mountain on the Big Oak Flat Road at the upper end of the Tuolumne Big Tree Grove.

The SECRETARY. Well, of course, as I see it, it doesn't really matter what was the particular location or what particular road. The circumstance, happening at the time it did, simply serves to call our attention to the fact that you can not dispose of these matters in the offhand way which many of the gentlemen suggested yesterday. That "if" that has been put into this question all the while with regard to the admission of automobiles to this park, which ought to appear in capital letters, ought now to be put in double caps and black-faced, so we shall understand that we must pay a great deal of attention to the "if."

Now, we have the matter of the Sequoia Park, and we might as well take it up right now.

Mr. MCSTAY. The Automobile Club of Southern California wrote a letter to the Interior Department during the month of September, making application that the Sequoia National Park be opened to automobiles, and according to the information in the hands of the Automobile Club of Southern California, Capt. Whitman, who has just retired, I believe, as superintendent of that park, has reported on that matter. I also understand that the present superintendent, Mr. Fry, has likewise reported, and in order to save time any information that I can personally give you in order to set those facts before this conference and to the attention of the Secretary, I would be obliged to the Secretary if he would call on those who are familiar with the conditions—Capt. Whitman, for example, and later, Mr. Fry and others.

The SECRETARY. Captain, perhaps either you or Mr. Fry, whoever is most familiar, can give us a brief statement of just what is involved.

Capt. WHITMAN. On the sole point of entrance of automobiles?

The SECRETARY. No; I don't understand that that is the question alone, is it?

Mr. MCSTAY. No; I think not. I think the general advisability is what you seek—the general advisability of opening that park to automobiles.

The SECRETARY. Yes; and in what way, if it can be done at all?

Capt. WHITMAN. This matter has already gone of record in my annual report, which is in your hands, having made the statement that I consider that the admission of automobiles to the Sequoia National Park is feasible and is one link in the chain of development. Parks will not be developed until the people go there and until they have hotel accommodations and good roads. This, in my opinion, is one of the prime factors in bringing that result about. Working it out on an engineering basis, Mr. Fry and I found that by the construction of 6 miles of road we could give automobiles a practically separate road into the park from the road used by the wagon; in that way eliminating all danger and providing a magnificent scenic route much more beautiful than the present wagon road and presenting no engineering difficulties that could not be overcome at an estimated cost of $40,000, which would give an excellent road and the grade of not over 8 per cent—7-1/2 per cent—and I really believe that the automobile should be not only admitted, but encouraged to come in, because it brings with it the money that we want and the people we want, and in that way tends to develop the park, and in this respect it can be done with safety.

The SECRETARY. This 6 miles of road, where would it begin?

Capt. WHITMAN. At a point on the Middle Fork of the Kaweah River to which the electric-power company has extended the road for their own use in building an aqueduct in which they propose to run water.

The SECRETARY. What is the condition of that road?

Capt. WHITMAN. That is a very good road as far as grade goes. It is dusty in places, but the grade is easy, and the road is in constant use by our own wagons, and on the hill above is the Giant Forest Road, which is still in existence and in good condition.

The SECRETARY. What is the width of that first road?

Capt. WHITMAN. It is wide enough for teams to pass, and, like all mountain roads, it has some places where it is very narrow, on account of the ledge of rock, which goes right down to the creek bed and has to be blasted through; but at other points there are many turnouts.

The SECRETARY. Are those sharp turns or narrow turns protected in any way?

Capt. WHITMAN. On the outside edge?

The SECRETARY. Yes, sir.

Capt. WHITMAN No, sir; they are right following the creek bed. They are not very precipitous. This road is right along the creek all the way up.

The SECRETARY. Do you think we ought to admit automobiles without some provision for the further improvement or protection of the Whitney Power Road?

Capt. WHITMAN. Yes, sir; as far as that road goes, I think it can be used now by both automobiles and wagons. In fact, the Whitney Co. use their tremendous automobile trucks on the lower portion of that road now, where conditions are practically the same.

The SECRETARY. What about the other road?

Capt. WHITMAN. The other road is used by wagons and by everybody now. It is the only road into the Giant Forest in the Sequoia Park. It is about the center of the park, I suppose, and goes no farther. The proposition is to link those two at a point very near the terminus of the Giant Forest Road—not exactly at this end, but within a mile so.

The SECRETARY. That is to say, the 6 miles of road would connect those two roads?

Capt. WHITMAN. Yes, sir.

The SECRETARY. Are those roads toll roads?

Capt. WHITMAN. No, sir; they are both Government roads.

The SECRETARY. What title?

Capt. WHITMAN. They belong to the Government—Interior Department.

The SECRETARY. Both those roads?

Capt. WHITMAN. Everything inside the park concerning those two roads belongs to us.

The SECRETARY. What length of road in each case is under our jurisdiction?

Capt. WHITMAN. Twenty-one miles of the Giant Forest Road inside the park, all under our jurisdiction, and the other about 11.

The SECRETARY. Well, has any suggestion occurred to you as to fixing this road which you recommend should receive $40,000, except to get Congress to appropriate the money?

Capt. WHITMAN. None other. That is all I could do.

The SECRETARY. You recommend it be done?

Capt. WHITMAN. Yes, sir; in the interest of the development of the park.

The SECRETARY. Then it looks as if it was up to that very effective agitating body down at Los Angeles to get busy.

Capt. WHITMAN. Yes, sir. I would like Mr. Fry, Mr. Secretary, to add what he knows about that. He has been there a good many years and I haven't.

The SECRETARY. Mr. Fry, tell us about it as you see it.

Mr. FRY. Mr. Secretary, Camp Sierra, situated in the very midst of the Giant Forest, is the only tourist camp within the Sequoia National Park, conducted under concession by the Interior Department, and is surrounded by the most scenic and picturesque country that could be found throughout the world. The only method of reaching Camp Sequoia in this Giant Forest is by way of either the Southern Pacific or the Santa Fe to Visalia, thence by the electric car line to Lemon Cove Station, thence a distance by wagon road some 40 miles to the camp. This road leading into the Giant Forest is all mountain road—that portion of it lying within the park between the park entrance and Camp Sierra is 19 miles in length. The portion of the road, the upper portion of the road between Camp Sierra and Collins Mill, a distance of 12 miles, is practically a two-track road—it doesn't exceed a grade at any place of 8 per cent.

The SECRETARY. What is the general grade?

Mr. FRY. The general grade is about 4-1/2 per cent. That portion between Cowan Mill and the west park entrance at the lower outlet is about 12 feet in width and 10 miles in length. It has 62 passing points for teams or any class of vehicles. The portion of the county road below Lemon Cove Station and the park entrance is a very much poorer road than anything we have in the park. There is no entrance from the east, south, or north. There has been no accident in that vicinity to my knowledge since automobiles have been operated. The demand for using the Giant Forest road never before came before the acting superintendent's office until three years ago some few demands were made, and they kept coming at intervals, until, during the month of September, there was a demand made at one time representing 64,000 automobile owners for permission to enter the road.

The SECRETARY. Forget it.

Mr. FRY. I was showing the pressure. That is the character of the country and the road. Now, if there is any question, Mr. Secretary, that you would like to ask in regard to the forest other than what Capt. Whitman has said already, I will be pleased to answer it.

The SECRETARY. I don't think there is anything else. In explanation of my interjection, I wish to say that even the automobile people who attend this conference have come to me and told me privately what they really think of this question, although they have joined in a general request to admit automobiles, which will discount the general representations very, very heavily. I assume that it means that automobilists generally would like to have admission to the park if admission can be had upon the proper conditions of comfort and safety, and they usually pass that question up to us. When we ask them the question, they very frankly admit that they do not believe that existing conditions are such as to justify admission and as to what changes are to be made they put that up to the engineers, so that it goes back, as Col. Forsyth has said, to sane, reasonable engineering advice. We will recognize both sides and not attempt to be radical either way, but try to get at the fundamental facts and then decide.

Mr. McSTAY. May I say a word right here? We have just taken the opposite position in this matter from that which we took on the Yosemite road proposition. We brought our own engineer's report on the Yosemite matter, presented it, and on behalf of the automobile club, I have no apology to offer for the nature of our report. I believe we come before you in a comprehensive and businesslike manner. I take the position that the Interior Department of the United States is merely a department of the people and should be so considered. I consider that the petition of 64,000 people or 6,400 people is entitled to consideration. I further take the position that the parks, the Yosemite Park, the Sequoia National Park, and all parks, belong to the people and should be opened to the people. In this matter of the Sequoia Park, I was very pleased that it was possible to have such testimony and such evidence as had been offered by the engineers and superintendents of the park itself, which I believe demonstrates the fact that the park is now in a condition to open to the motorist without the construction of this 6 miles of road. The construction of the 6 miles of road, as I understand Capt. Whitman, would add greatly to the facilities and would enable a perfectly independent automobile road, but, Mr. Secretary, there is one thing should be considered and I believe it should be considered seriously by the Interior Department, and that is the fact that California, not alone the park, but California, is the playground of the United States.

The SECRETARY. Pardon me, but I do not think it is necessary to emphasize or repeat what we have heard on the subject. I don't think it will be helpful to give assurances of this character. If Los Angeles is interested in this question, it is up to them to help us get the $40,000 necessary to build the road.

Mr. McSTAY. We will be very glad to do that, but, Mr. Secretary, when a State in the Union undertakes to build some 20,000 miles of road, there is a purpose in that and the purpose is to reach these points. It is what the State of California is doing, and we are anxious to have the cooperation of the Interior Department. It is going to take not less than two years' time to build a road to the entrance of this park. If we know the park is to be opened—if it is opened—then we can go to work and endeavor to have the macadamized roads built to the entrance to these parks, and that is the particular point we had to bring out, that we have a vast amount of work to do during the next three years and we are particularly anxious to connect these points before the Panama Exposition.

The SECRETARY. You are no more anxious than I am. I started with that two days ago—that I was in favor of opening the national parks to automobiles if it could be done under proper conditions. It is not necessary two days and a half after to argue with me the proposition and to assume it is necessary to convince me. Let us start with the supposition that some things are settled. I am thoroughly convinced that the parks belong to the people. Very well. I want to know who are the people, and I do not conceive that either 64,000 or 664,000 automobile users in the United States constitute the whole people. It is necessary to take care of both kinds and all kinds of people in the national parks, and the question is whether we can take care of the 64,000 without doing injury to the rest of the population.

Mr. MCSTAY. You have the evidence of your engineers in this matter.

Mr. PILLSBURY. Mr. Secretary, I am vitally interested in this park—I am planning this summer to take in some 6,000 people. I should like to tell my own experience in going through this park. Leaving Visalia in the morning on the electric to Lemon Cove, one takes the stage and goes about half way over a mountain road—arrives there about noon, stops at a wayside farmhouse for lunch, and spends the rest of the day at this little farmhouse, it being too far to make it clear into the park that day. The next day over a continuation of the same vile road to the entrance to the park and then on up into the grove. It takes, therefore, two days to reach this park. Now, I am planning, as I say, to take 6,000 people into this park and into the Kings River Canyon, and to do this I can not afford to put in two days' time in reaching this Camp Sierra, and must put on an automobile stage between Visalia or between Lemon Cove and the entrance to the park. The good road commences at the entrance to the park. The only practically first-class road is within the confines of this park—the part that automobiles are now excluded from, and it seems unreasonable to me to have to be obliged to put in automobiles over the vile part in order to connect with the good part and make it in one day, as I would be obliged to in taking my parties there.

The SECRETARY. What is your suggestion?

Mr. PILLSBURY. My suggestion is that automobiles be allowed to go through this park over its present road. It is ever so much better and safer than the automobilists are now allowed to go over in reaching the General Grant Park at the other end of this national park.

The SECRETARY. Capt. Whitman, what have you got to say to the suggestion just made?

Capt. WHITMAN. Mr. Pillsbury, in his comparison between the Sequoia and General Grant Roads, is referring to the county roads. In the General Grant Park there is no grade and there are entirely separate roads for automobiles. Horse vehicles do not use that one. As to the safety of the present Giant Forest Road, I am loath to state, as much as I would like to see the automobiles come in, that I do not consider that they should be admitted on that road on account of its precipitous sides and narrow places where the granite rock outcrops. There is too much hauling—the teams that haul our supplies, etc., up there run from six to eight horses and string out a long way on this road, and I prefer to stand on my first ground that a separate road be built even if it does cost $40,000. It is worth it in the end.

Mr. PILLSBURY. After making the trip through the Sequoia Park to the Sierra Camp I went over to the General Grant Park, starting at Los Angeles, in an automobile stage, which is allowed to go into this park. It is one of these large cars that hold about 25 people. They run all summer long, almost on a 10-minute schedule without a stop. They went over roads which are so bad compared with the road going into the Sequoia end of this park that there is no comparison. The turns were so bad the auto couldn't make it without zigzagging to get around some of the turns.

The SECRETARY. That may be a good reason for not continuing that. The argument that we have done something, if it is a mistake, of course, does not carry very far.

Mr. PILLSBURY. Of course, this place I spoke of is a county road and not within the park.

The SECRETARY. Let me say that this argument carries no particular weight with me. The fact that we do use or permit automobiles to go over very bad roads where they are the only roads that people can go over, and where the county authorities choose to take the chances, seems to me to have very little application to the question as to whether in a pleasure ground we should permit that practice. The United States Government is looking after these roads and it is in charge, and there will be a very different measure of responsibility when we permit the use of the road in such a way as to lead to serious accident. Where outside or county authorities say that is the best they could do and these poor roads are the only roads there are the people have to use them. We don't have to let people come into parks over that kind of road. I mean we don't have to permit that kind of vehicle over this road.

Mr. PILLSBURY. The roads in the park are about 75 to 90 per cent better than the roads outside, and that much safer.

The SECRETARY. When all engineering advice is that we ought not to use these roads and can not use them in safety, I can not see that we advance very much when we know that outside they are worse.

Mr. PILLSBURY. Well, if your engineers are automobilists—I looked the roads over carefully. I went into the General Grant one day and out the next, just to see what the condition of the road was, and I contend they are perfectly feasible and safe.

The SECRETARY. Are you an engineer?

Mr. PILLSBURY. No; but I have had a great deal of experience in the California mountains.

The SECRETARY. If you were Secretary of the Interior and some individual rose in the audience and said that he was interested in carrying people in automobiles and it would be easier and better if he were allowed to do it and that he thought it was perfectly safe and yet the engineer familiar with the matter said he didn't think it could be done safely, what would you do?

Mr. PILLSBURY. It is a difference of opinion.

The SECRETARY. Who do you put your money on—the engineer or the man who knows his own business and therefore thinks he ought to take automobiles over the road?

Mr. PILLSBURY. I think, Mr. Secretary, that Mr. Fry has stated that he considers the roads absolutely safe in their present condition. He has been in the park for a great many years and has had wide experience.

The SECRETARY. Then you think you can support your side by the head ranger's story. Is that right, Mr. Fry?

Mr. FRY. As long as automobiles run, we will have accidents; but I base my theory on this, that automobiles are running and do run on much worse roads than we have in the park, and I would approve of them going over the Giant Forest Road only under certain restrictions' they can run the 19 miles in less than two hours.

The SECRETARY. What restrictions do you think would help?

Mr. FRY. The restrictions should be that certain portions of the day or hours of the day that portion of the road be thrown open to automobilists.

The SECRETARY. Have you an adequate force to enforce regulations of that kind?

Mr. FRY. In addition to the military we have ample force.

The SECRETARY. You mean using the military?

Mr. FRY. The military is there during certain seasons, but if the military was not there it would require perhaps one additional man.

The SECRETARY. How would you check with one additional man?

Mr. FRY. At the park entrance. We would station a man at the park entrance and one at the mill. At the upper end give him a limit of time and he mustn't reach that point prior to a certain time, and let people in general know that rule. This would be automobile day, and people who had horses that were frightened at automobiles would know that certain days or certain hours would be automobile days and therefore would shun it.

The SECRETARY. Your idea is that we might exclude the horse vehicles on certain days in the week?

Mr. FRY. Not exclude them, Mr. Secretary.

The SECRETARY. You mean we can exclude them or notify them if they come on it is at their own peril?

Mr. FRY. That they went on subject to these restrictions, and the automobile traveler must obey those restrictions in every particular. The run can be made from the forest or out of the forest in less than two hours, with what I consider apparent safety. I am suggesting this as a measure in justifying this matter between the horse-drawn vehicles and the automobile.

The SECRETARY. Now, let us get facts. Your suggestion, as I understand you, was that certain days in the week the automobiles might be permitted

Mr. FRY. That is it exactly.

The SECRETARY. Do you understand that on those days horse-drawn vehicles are to be excluded or permitted to come in?

Mr. FRY. Permit them to come in.

The SECRETARY. Provided they and the automobiles comply with certain regulations?

Mr. FRY. Yes, sir; the automobile. The automobile is placed under a restriction.

The SECRETARY. That restriction is that he shall run at a certain speed?

Mr. FRY. Yes, sir; and give the right of way—shut off his engine, as in the Grant Park.

The SECRETARY. Your theory is that with this restriction we can let them come in with safety?

Mr. FRY. With apparent safety.

The SECRETARY. Why do you qualify the word "safety?"

Mr. FRY. I do not mean, Mr. Secretary, that you can run an automobile anywhere with perfect safety.

The SECRETARY. Apparently we can't operate a horse-drawn vehicle with perfect safety; but go on—is that all you meant by "apparent safety"?

Mr. FRY. No. I don't believe, Mr. Secretary, you understand what I mean by safety. What I mean, Mr. Secretary, is this: That there will be no more danger so far as the team is concerned on that road, in my opinion, than there is in the San Joaquin Valley on a wagon road.

The SECRETARY. No more danger?

Mr. FRY. I don't believe so. Of course, if the brakes should give way the Interior Department wouldn't be responsible for frightening horses.

The SECRETARY. Now, Mr. Fry, I suppose that if vehicles were driven with the greatest of care on the roads we have in any of these parks that there would be extreme unlikelihood of an accident, but we don't have vehicles driven with the greatest care, and we do have accidents, and we do feel responsible for it. Why do you think we wouldn't feel just that way if we had an accident in the Sequoia or Grant Park? Do you think that if we notify people that it is done at their peril, and that they must comply with restrictions, which if they do comply with, there will not be any accident, and if a particular man doesn't comply and makes mistakes and an accident happens, that in that way we relieve ourselves from responsibility?

Mr. FRY. Not exactly.

The SECRETARY. Then I assure you that I feel responsible so far as I am concerned.

Mr. FRY. It is, then, unpreventable.

The SECRETARY. But do you think the likelihood of accident increases with the mixing of the two vehicles, even though under restriction?

Mr. FRY. The likelihood for accidents is more frequent with the increase of travel, but I do not believe with these restrictions there would be more accidents than with the same number of animal-drawn vehicles.

The SECRETARY. You think the restrictions are feasible and practicable?

Mr. FRY. I think they can be made feasible and practicable.

The SECRETARY. The ones you suggest?

Mr. FRY. Similar to them. I wouldn't be favorable at that time under the condition of the road to the constant pouring in or out of automobiles. These restrictions are just for the automobiles. There are some 24 towns within the vicinity that can be reached representing something like several thousand people. They can leave home in the morning and be in there in the night. They would arrive at the park entrance in the afternoon. No automobiles should be permitted to go out that afternoon. The automobiles should stay in. They should come out before noon on the days that were thrown open. This should be ample restriction to protect the teamster.

The SECRETARY. Captain, you have beard what Mr. Fry has said. Does that modify your view at all?

Capt. WHITMAN. Not at all, sir. Mr. Fry, like myself, would like to see the automobiles come in, but the Giant Forest road is so long, the freight teams that bring our forage to our camp take four to five days for the round trip and they are going all summer, and it would be absolutely impossible in that length of road to set any morning or afternoon or day in the week that that road would be free from wagons. If it happened to be a piece of level road that automobiles could go over with perfect safety in a short time, it would be all right. I believe there is no hour any day in the week that there are not heavy teams going or coming on that road.

The SECRETARY. You don't think it would be practicable to have Mr. Fry's plans put into effect?

Capt. WHITMAN. No, sir; I do not think it would be feasible. The automobiles and wagons are bound to be on the road at the same time, and the freight teams move so slowly; they are always present.

The SECRETARY. We will have to ask Mr. Pillsbury to postpone bringing the people in for one season at least.

Mr. PILLSBURY. We have a soldiers' camp within about 2 miles of the entrance to this park and telephone connection with the parks. There is absolutely nothing easier than to designate the hours for automobiles being allowed over the road.

The SECRETARY. Does that meet the captain's suggestion at all, about the wagon roads and teams that are on the roads all the time?

Mr. PILLSBURY. Yes, sir. We are only asking—only expecting—certain hours in the day—some notification must be given about times and—

The SECRETARY. You mean there would be telephone stations all along the route? The teams, as I understand the captain, are strung out along the road, going in and going out.

Mr. PILLSBURY. There is one class of teams—that is, the Government teams. All the others would make the distance from the soldiers' camp to the entrance in a short time.

The SECRETARY. Half a day?

Mr. PILLSBURY. It would be less than half a day.

The SECRETARY. Are you speaking now of automobile or carriage?

Mr. PILLSBURY. The stage for tourists—the ordinary way at the present time. Automobiles would make this park easily without any danger at all, any more than on any ordinary mountain road, in less than two hours. If they were given only two hours, that would be found most suitable. It is not necessary to go to any expense that I can see to let them come there.

The SECRETARY. I have discussed with Col. Forsyth during the recess the question of regulations along the general lines on which you are talking—somewhat the same as suggested yesterday—and he has very pronounced views as to the impracticability of that particular method of handling this matter. Colonel, it is the same question we were talking about. What have you to say about it?

Col. FORSYTH. For a road 16 or 20 miles long, with a steep grade, it is utterly out of the question, Mr. Secretary, as long as there are heavily weighted freight wagons. We can not count on their making regular schedule time on a road of that length. It takes a loaded freight wagon nearly all day to come from El Portal up here, half of it a horizontal road, nearly.

The SECRETARY. How about the passenger wagon?

Col. FORSYTH. You must provide for breakdowns of an automobile. How are you going to get it out of the way on a road that is not wide enough for two teams to pass.

The SECRETARY. Captain, can you tell us whether there are turnouts on the road we are now discussing?

Capt. WHITMAN. Yes, sir.

The SECRETARY. How often?

Capt. WHITMAN. Some 62.

The SECRETARY. In what distance?

Capt. WHITMAN. In 10 miles. There are very frequent turnouts, Mr. Secretary, but nevertheless the turns are so sharp that you frequently get caught between those two, as I did coming down on my last trip. We met a freight wagon and one wheel jumped over the axle of our wagon. Mr. Pillsbury's suggestion to stop the traffic at certain hours can not be applied to the passsengers who want to get down and must catch a train. If they leave the tourist camp and start for a railroad station they are going to get there with a livery stable rig or anything they can get.

The SECRETARY. That is one point that has not been mentioned. What about train schedules? How are you going to regulate the traffic in and out with regard to existing train schedules or any schedule the trains should work out?

Mr. PILLSBURY. It is necessary to put in automobiles to make the trip in order to connect with the train service.

The SECRETARY. We are not all the people. How about the man who has the horse vehicle, can not run an automobile, or prefers to ride in a stage wagon?

Mr. PILLSBURY. The horse vehicle does make the trip from Sequoia Camp to Lemon Cove in one day and connects with the train.

The SECRETARY. Do you think that schedule could be maintained if the proposed restriction as to hours were used?

Mr. PILLSBURY. Yes, sir; that is, on the down trip. Going up it takes two days; only a day and a half, but they make you stop over at this farmhouse a half a day.

The SECRETARY. So that the train schedules are morning and evening arrivals?

Mr. PILLSBURY. Yes, sir.

Mr. VALENTINE. Just a point that has not been discussed. In the San Bernardino Mountains they have been doing a great deal of heavy freighting by team. This year they put on large trucks. I believe that your great objection, Mr. Secretary, is the matter of six and eight horse freight teams. If you would put on auto trucks in hauling that freight it would be in the interest of economy, and I think would solve the whole proposition.

The SECRETARY. I think that is as beautiful an illustration of the point of view of the automobilist as any we have had at the meeting. I know there is a very simple solution to many of my automobile friends—eliminate the horse entirely and have it all done by automobiles—but national parks have not reached that stage of evolutionary progress, and it amounts to the same proposition as the $40,000 road. We would have to have means to buy the automobile truck, and Congress thus far has not been extremely liberal in that connection.

Mr. PILLSBURY. I am perfectly willing that you gentlemen who are interested in the Sequoia National Park should bring whatever new evidence may occur to you or whatever additional argument there may be to bear on my engineering advisers, and I would be glad to hear of the result.

I have found it almost infeasible or impracticable to change a man's opinion once it is formed. It seems to me it is very much easier in a case of this sort, when we run up against opposition, to go around the other way.

The SECRETARY. How do you expect to get around the engineers?

Mr. PILLSBURY. I can not get into the park except through one entrance. It is putting a great hardship not alone on me but on thousands of others.

The SECRETARY. I understand the desirability of making a change, and I also understand the difficulties in the way—those that seem to impress my engineering officers.

Is there any other park where we have any of these questions?

Mr. McSTAY. Mr. Secretary, I understand the Crater Lake Park is opened to automobiles and that something like 450 machines have used primitive roads in conjunction with horse-drawn vehicles during this season, and it seems to me that we are making flesh of one and fish of another, and we people of southern California would like to get in on something if it is possible to do it.

The SECRETARY. You have had it indicated, as plainly as I can indicate, how you can get in. What is the situation at Crater Lake, Mr. Arant?

Mr. ARANT. As to the question of admitting automobiles into the park or the feasibility of admitting them, we do not come in that list. Automobiles have run into the Crater Lake Park since the creation of the park, and up to the last two years without any restrictions whatever. However, there has not been a great many in there up to about three years ago, but before I could give you an idea as to the condition of things there I would have to enter into a brief description of the roads into the Crater Lake National Park. We have very primitive roads in that park. Running into the park from western Oregon and eastern Oregon is a road that was opened 47 years ago across the Cascade Mountains through a heavily timbered section of the country for the purpose of bringing supplies across the mountains to Klamath for use at the post, and the road at that time was constructed simply by cutting out a way through the trees, bushes, and logs, and the road is very crooked and narrow and there has been but little improvement on that road, even since that section, the Crater Lake section, has been created into a park, for the reason that the appropriations have not been sufficient to make any great improvements. The soil over which the roads run is a lava flow, presumably from Crater Lake. When we remember that there has been 13 cubic miles of earth displaced by that volcanic flow, which has spread out over the adjacent country, we can readily see it would reach a considerable distance.

So the entire mileage of roads into Crater Lake Park is made over this lava formation and it is porous and cuts up readily with the travel over it into a very fine dust and it blows out in the summer time and washes out in the spring and winter, and these roads become what you might almost call a rut, the width of a wagon, and in only a few places any more than that, and a foot or more below the level of the ground. That is the condition of the road with such improvements as could have been made since it has been a park and with as few turnouts as could be made also. I think about five years ago and that is about as early as automobiles were used in that section of the country, there were a few automobiles came up in there because there were no restrictions. There were then less than 2,000 people visiting the park during the summer, but as automobiles became more common and more commonly in use the number of visitors to the park increased. At about that time it was regarded as quite a curiosity that there were two automobiles up on the rim of the crater. It was spoken of a number of times one day that there were two automobiles up there. Later on they were very common and ran in there, as I say, without any restrictions until the beginning of the season of 1911, when there was a restriction placed upon automobiles running in there.

The SECRETARY. When was that regulation adopted?

Mr. ARANT. The season of 1911, last year.

The SECRETARY. How long prior to the opening of the season, Mr. Arant?

Mr. ARANT. All during the winter or early spring months.

The SECRETARY. Was that when Secretary Ballinger, who resides in Seattle, was Secretary of the Interior?

Mr. ARANT. I believe it was.

The SECRETARY. What were the regulations?

Mr. ARANT. The restrictions are that automobiles may be admitted to run upon the roads in the Crater Lake National Park from 6.30 to 9.30 a. m., and from 3.30 to 6.30 p. m., and the speed limit is 6 miles an hour, excepting on the straight stretches of the road and no teams are in sight, when the speed may be increased to 15 miles an hour. And it is expressly stated that a team has the right of way, and that an automobile driver must handle the grade in such a manner as to give the team perfect safety. If they meet on a grade the automobile is to take the outer side of the hill, regardless of the direction in which they are going, and if the team appears to be frightened the automobilist shall bring his machine to a stop, and if the horses are frightened he shall get far enough away so as to give the team plenty of room, and if they meet on a narrow place on the road the automobile shall back up and get out of the way of the team. Last year, under these rules, there were 279 automobiles in the Crater Lake Park.

The SECRETARY. During the whole season?

Mr. ARANT. During the season of 1911; and at the same time there were teams passing back and forth on the road.

The SECRETARY. I take it that this regulation in regard to the hours that automobiles might be admitted was not put into effect so that teams might keep off the road?

Mr. ARANT. They paid no attention to it. They travel the road now in the forenoon and also in the afternoon just the same. And this year to the 1st day of October, the season opening very late this year—as late as the middle of July, or later, to the 1st day of October—there were 500 automobiles—that is, in round numbers; in actual numbers, 492 automobiles—to October 1.

The SECRETARY. Now, Mr. Arant, can you tell us how many vehicles were there in that period?

Mr. ARANT. I couldn't; but a great number less than have been coming in there before; more automobiles and less horse-drawn vehicles. The travel in the park this year has been at the least 50 per cent automobiles; probably more.

The SECRETARY. Tell us something about the road. You told us about the condition of the road as to ruts. Is the road along the edge of cliffs of steep grades?

Mr. ARANT. There are some grades, and the road leading in from the south boundary of the park runs on what is called the rim of the Anna Creek Canyon, but not near enough to the canyon at any place, I might say any number of places, so that there is any danger. It runs a little distance

The SECRETARY. It is not on the rim of the canyon?

Mr. ARANT. It is on a timbered bank which lies above the canyon. Some places it runs near the canyon, but not near enough to be dangerous.

The SECRETARY. Do you think there are any dangerous points of the kind we have in this valley in the Crater Lake Road; and if so, how much?

Mr. ARANT. Not particularly so. There might be some places that would be regarded as a little dangerous—a person could go off if they wanted to; but there is plenty of room not to go off. As I say, this valley is a level, timbered valley into which this road runs which is right along the rim of the canyon.

The SECRETARY. All right. I am much obliged.

Mr. PILLSBURY. I am also interested in Crater Lake; just came from there a week ago yesterday in an automobile. I went over this road, and the road is along the rim of this canyon, and the places where it approaches close to the canyon an extra road has been made to drive out to the rim. The really dangerous part of the road is the last mile, just as you get to the rim of the canyon. The road is quite steep and very winding.

The SECRETARY. Is it near the edge of any drop off?

Mr. PILLSBURY. No; but it—

The SECRETARY. But you wouldn't say there was any such condition existing there as here at all?

Mr. PILLSBURY. I shouldn't say the road was any more dangerous than the one in the Sequoia National Park.

The SECRETARY. I asked you the question whether or not you would say the conditions there are at all comparable with those that exist here in this park?

Mr. PILLSBURY. Not in this park, but in the Sequoia they are quite similar.

The SECRETARY. I have not been there, so I can not ask questions intelligently about it.

Mr. Marshall has been making a reconnoissance of the proposed Estes Park region in Colorado, and that is one of the questions he has had to observe there. What was your observation there?

Mr. MARSHALL. I might first say I am one of the timid kind and afraid of automobiles. I have been in them when they were going 40 miles an hour and some that didn't go at all, and I was afraid both ways. I went to the park and went in by what was considered by the people in general the dangerous way for an automobile to be used. I may say in this case that I am neither defending nor opposing the automobiles in the park. Mine is just simply an attempt to inform you the best I can. About four years ago they had very crude roads getting into the proposed Estes National Park—narrow, bumpy, and very rough. Since that time, and it has been going on for about four years, there is what might be termed a fair road—not much better than the average road in a national park, not as good as the old Collin Road in the Sequoia. The road is only about as wide as an automobile. The turnouts are few. There is a roaring, beautiful river on one side and a hill on the other, like we have right here. It is 32 miles from Loveland to Estes Park. Thirty miles of this is through this canyon. They make the trip in two hours. They have a White steamer there for stage use and they go around these curves so fast they take your breath away. I am frightened to death all the time and they seem to think it is nothing, and we passed horses going and coming. The automobile when it comes in sight of a turn blows the whistle and goes around very slowly, less than 6 miles an hour, which can be done better with a steamer than the average gas car, and they meet these horses going and coming and don't pay any attention apparently to the danger at all. I have had some little experience with Government mules. We had six on the team last summer. They had been pastured around Cheyenne.

We drove three days across country from Cheyenne. At the first turn on this road we met an automobile. The automobile came to the turn and stopped. The mules crouched. They finally went on. When they made the next turn, they met another automobile. They didn't like it very much, but they went on. About the third time they didn't pay any attention. I am told that since the started this automobile system on two or three roads some of the grades, say 18 per cent and steep on both sides, that they haven't had a single accident.

The SECRETARY. Did you get an estimate as to the difference between the horse-drawn vehicles and the machines entering the park?

Mr MARSHALL. I don't think the horse-drawn vehicle has increased or decreased, but the automobiles have made the increase. The automobiles have that country, and apparently no one objects, and the animals are not afraid. Now, when you come to the Collin Mill Road, with its freight teams and mules, don't those same animals see the automobiles down below? Is there any more reason to believe they would be more frightened on the grade than they are there? And if the animals, two or three or six, start to run away, if you go off 50 feet you might just as well go 500. There are plenty of turn outs on the Collin Mill Road. It is one of the best we have. I am not advocating either one thing or the other. There should be no objection to the automobile when the automobilist knows that if he fails to meet the regulations he will be excluded entirely; he will be cautious and careful. From the experience I had in the proposed Estes Park they are extremely careful; the drivers were particularly careful to stop on each curve and blow the whistle. I don't think any objection to having an automobile stage or truck, whatever you call it, from El Portal right into the Sentinel Hotel; nor do I see any objection to using any certain road—this or the Wawona, Big Oak Flat, or any other. I do not believe it is going to be any more dangerous, Mr. Secretary, than it is to-day; and horses will frighten—I have had them run away myself from a sack of barley, and an automobile doesn't run away from a can of gasoline.

Mr. CURTIS. Will you permit just a word of testimony in support of what Mr. Marshall has just said? Last year I had the pleasure of going through this big canyon, known as the Loveland Canyon, for 20 miles in a large gas car, and we had a very cautious chauffeur, and a portion of the trip was after dark, and we met along that road innumerable horses, teams, and trucks, and people in coaches, and the entire road is so crooked that I did not believe there was 50 feet of straight road in the whole canyon, and yet we went there at a fast speed and had no trouble whatever, and I have found that people through that park were heartily in favor of automobiles, and as a man who is interested somewhat in automobiles, having one myself, I think that Loveland Canyon is one of the wildest and wickedest pieces of road I ever went over in my life, and yet we had not the least bit of trouble. The road was so narrow it was just wide enough for the automobile, and yet by cautious travel, which we did that evening, there was no trouble whatever.

Mr. ARANT. Mr. Secretary, I want to say, like my friend, Mr. Marshall, that I am not advocating automobiles only so far as they might be a benefit, but I want to say that in our park, the Crater Lake Park, at the time of admission of automobiles, or the time they commenced running in there, the visitors to the park during the season numbered less than 2,000.

This past season there has been more automobile travel; the number was 5,109 up to the 1st of October, or, I believe, a little later in October, probably the 5th; and as far as accidents are concerned, I am happy to say there hasn't been an accident of any kind from an automobile in the park since automobiles have been running in there. There have been no collisions between persons traveling in coaches or private rigs, horse-drawn vehicles and the automobile people. They respect each other's rights. If an automobile comes out behind a team in one of these narrow places, he sounds the horn and as soon as the team finds a place for the two vehicles to pass he either turns out of the road and lets the automobile pass or stops in the road and lets the automobile go around. This talk I have heard here of excluding automobiles from certain roads or separating them is a new thing to me entirely. We don't pay any attention to it up there and there don't appear to be any necessity for it in that park. I will say that in a way I am not advocating the use of automobiles any further than so far as it is a benefit to the people, but it would undoubtedly cut down the attendance in the park 50 per cent or more to exclude automobiles. Now, the distance from the surrounding towns and railroad stations and abiding places there is too far to Crater Lake Park. Crater Lake, which is the principal object of interest, lies right on the summit of the Cascade Mountains, and is, of course, a little distant from the valleys and towns in the valley; it is 85 miles from Medford and 62 miles from Klamath Falls, the nearest points to the lake. Those are the nearest points and villages, and the people in the town of Klamath Falls, as well as those on the western side, have only Sundays for recreation. They start out early in the morning—Sunday morning, the business men or clerks or the working people—they make the round trip to Crater Lake and back in a day.

The SECRETARY. That is the principal use of the Crater Lake Park? People who come out in the forenoon and go back in the evening?

Mr. ARANT. Yes, sir; those that are near enough. Of course, those from a greater distance stay overnight or even a longer time.

The SECRETARY. But there are comparatively few who stay a longer time than that?

Mr. ARANT. That is, just during a part of the day?

The SECRETARY. A longer time than overnight?

Mr. ARANT. Yes, sir.

The SECRETARY. This change that was made in the rules up there limiting automobiles to certain hours of the day—was that made on your recommendation?

Mr. ARANT. I believe it was; yes, sir.

The SECRETARY. How did it come about? I understood you to say you saw no reason why the two vehicles could not use the road at the same time.

Mr. ARANT. Well, the experience has taught me that.

The SECRETARY. Up to that time you thought there ought to be a separation?

Mr. ARANT. I believe I was directed by the department to draw up a set of rules under which automobiles might be admitted. Whether that was added to my rules or whether I suggested it I could not say.

The SECRETARY. It was not a matter of particular importance to you at that time or you would remember it.

Mr. ARANT. I can't remember.

The SECRETARY. Was Secretary Ballinger up there himself immediately prior to the adoption of those rules?

Mr. ARANT. He was up there, but without having occasion to look the matter over. I can not remember when he was there, but I believe it was the preceding season—1910, perhaps, or 1909; I couldn't say positively.

The SECRETARY. Well, now, Capt. Whitman, you have heard the expressions of opinion of these gentlemen with regard to their observation and experience. What impression does it make on you?

Capt. WHITMAN. I am still speaking only for my own little park. As regards the Giant Forest Road, it is not a question of familiarity of animals with machines—that is a mere matter of education—but on the Giant Forest Road there are many places where I don't believe an automobile could pass a wagon. I know in driving down, myself, we took every precaution, and the teams coming up are loaded with sleigh bells, so they can be heard. Nevertheless, you come around a sharp point and are confronted with a hay wagon or a heavy wood wagon, and in some cases the teams had to be unhitched and the wagon hauled back. Now, whether the automobile is always in condition to back up if caught, I wouldn't be prepared to say. I am not an automobile driver. I am not familiar with what they do under all conditions and what their possibilities and capabilities are.

The SECRETARY. Col. Forsyth, you have heard what these gentlemen have to offer in the way of personal observation. What effect does it have on your judgment?

Col. FORSYTH. I still think, Mr. Secretary, that there are features even that I am not prepared to deal with—to give an opinion on. It is a question of engineering. I think that if the roads are made safe, and the question as to what is safe brings out such diversity of opinion, it must be settled by the engineers. My only opposition to the automobile in this park is the safety to human life. Every summer but this one we have had a number of people killed and a larger number maimed, badly injured. The Army hospital over there has been of immense usefulness every summer but this. The motor cycles and bicycles frightened the stage teams. I have seen them do it, and the runaways have been accompanied by loss of life. We do know that perhaps the majority of automobile drivers are careful. You can't pick up a paper but what you read of some chauffeur who is not careful—there is a machine turned over and a man killed. Now, if that happens on level roads, it is going to happen with more deplorable results on mountain roads. You don't have to have the advice of an engineer on that. That is common sense, but I agree with Mr. Marshall that you are just as liable to have your neck broken by being thrown down 50 feet or 500 feet. An automobile owner came to me not very long ago. He said that he felt that he ought to clear his conscience. He had come in with a grievance against the Government. He had a right to come in here with his machine.

The SECRETARY. He thought he had a right.

Col. FORSYTH. He thought he had a right. That was his grievance. He had come in to look over the roads, however. He was taken up on the Big Oak Flat Road. He had been up to Fort Monroe on the Wawona Road. He thought it was only fair to his conscience that he come in and tell me that he wouldn't bring his own machine over either of those roads. If he ever came in the park with the road in the condition it is, it would be in a hired machine. He thought too much of his car to risk it. My attitude on the automobile question is that I don't want to have to haul any dead bodies to our hospital and embalm them and ship them out, nor do I want to have any broken bones set, or anything of that kind. The most careful people of human life and limb that I know are we Army and Navy professional men. It is all right when it comes to killing a man—I don't mind that quite so much as I do when it comes to women and children. Now, one automobile owner came to me and said, "What matters it to the Government if we want to risk our lives? What business is it of the Government? The Government shouldn't care." Sufficient answer to that is to say that the Government does care; but we can go a little further than that and say that if the man who wanted to come in in his car knew the danger he was running and he broke his neck, why, all right. I am just as enthusiastic in having everybody see these parks as anybody, but I want them to do it in safety and comfort. I don't believe in enjoying scenery at a risk. I want everybody to come in. Build roads, so that they can come in without being in jeopardy. Now, while I am preaching, I will just go a little further. One of the primal causes of government was the desire of a number of men to shift from individual shoulders to a few selected men the responsibility of looking after the safety of all that were concerened in that organization. That was the very first incentive that brought about government

Now, in connection with all the national parks, the bill setting aside that park either says so explicitly or by implication that the park shall be a place of resort and recreation for the people, a place of benefit and enjoyment for the people for all time. Now, when the Government sets aside a park for that purpose, it takes on itself the obligation of making that park accessible for all the people; that is, possible for all time. Now, that obligation goes with the very establishment of parks, but that obligation is limited. It is overshadowed by this other obligation on the Government to throw around the people every reasonable safeguard to life and limb. Now, that obligation is of greater importance than the other. It overshadows it. It is fundamental. That very same obligation in a different aspect compels our Government to send our Army and Navy to distant lands to protect our lives and people. That is the same obligation resting on us right here, on the Secretary and on myself, in the protection of life and limb here in the park.

Now, in the way of mountain roads, this park is much more dangerous than the Yellowstone Park in the main. The roads here are pretty narrow. This Big Oak Flat Road is only 8 feet wide in perhaps a hundred places in 4 miles, where a rocky cliff rises abruptly on one side and sinks down abruptly on the other. Now, no teams and motor cars can pass each other there, nor are the turnouts sufficiently numerous, so that my position on the automobile question is I want a reasonable safeguard to life and limb, and if that is provided, why nobody will welcome the automobile more than I.

Mr. FRENCH. I am not particularly interested in this argument, but I have been waiting and listening for a proposition that would solve the going over of a road in two different directions with different vehicles and to my mind it has not been set forth. I have had experience in railroad construction and necessarily I have been up against these problems. I will give you my idea. It may be as wildcat an idea to the others as theirs are to me. From my experience with the railroads—they have been laboring from year to year for safety—the first thing is to go to work and get a sufficient roadbed; the next is the service. From 50-pound rails we have now run to 150-pound rails. That is what you have got to have in an automobile and wagon road. Now, you have a road here 16 miles long with sufficient places, I think, at intervals, for a double track. Why, if you have a road 16 miles long, why can't you have 3 or 4 or 5 miles, as the road adapts itself, put in a double track as long as you can? Then you don't have to hold teams at one end of the road or the other. Start them each way and drive into those sidetracks at different intervals. Then put up a block system which is operated by the railroads. That lets your teams over the road in each direction at the same time. Now, for the machine that breaks down: Make it obligatory on every machine or wagon that goes through there to carry a switch rope and when the machine has a breakdown make it obligatory on those parties that are in good condition to use those and draw the other machine from the passage. That is the way we do on the railroads.

Mr. WALKER. While I am not vitally interested in any of the involved problems that have been discussed this morning, I am vitally interested in the success of the automobiles in getting into the parks, and listening to the arguments—some from technical sides, some from practical—reminds me of a situation which presents itself every day at the Boston School of Technology. Each class has a problem presented to them for finding out the engineering necessities of a certain bridge. There is no method of engineering by which they can safely go over the bridge that is given them, but each class walks over that bridge every day to school. Now, that is the problem we are confronting in some degree here—the question of our Army engineers, who are necessarily and laudably conservative in everything they do as opposed to the practical, because from the engineering point of view they don't seem feasible, from the practical point of view they are carried out every day. It seems to me that the Army engineers are very conservative in their judgment as to the actual conditions and actual facts—that they might come out of their shell for a while and see the other man's point of view and be a little more lenient than Capt. Whitman's stand. It looks to me as if he is a little too rigid. I am sure, with a little common sense, devoid of engineering, and the ethics of the road, we should come to an early and easier solution of the problem.

The SECRETARY. I am glad you came to the front again because I want to ask you some questions, and first let me say to you that I had at the last conference much the same experience that Mr. Marshall has described to you here to-day, and in the experience I had last summer through some of the very roughest mountain territory in the Northwest and over some of the worst roads I have seen I was impressed with the extent to which the horse and horse-drawn vehicle on one side was adapting itself to the advent of the automobile, and the extent to which the automobilist appreciated the conditions put up to him, both for his own safety and that of other people on the same road. I want to add to that the observation that I made in going on a single road. I went up a particular canyon on a pretty good road for a mountain road—I should say just a little better than some of these roads we have had under discussion in the park—not a great deal, but some better—in an automobile that passed a large number of vehicles, some coaches carrying passengers and some ordinary vehicles of the country, driven apparently by people who were simply going on the road to and from the park for their own pleasure or on business from home to the neighboring towns, and we had comparatively little trouble—occasionally a horse indicated a disposition to shy; but the automobilist that I was with was very careful, and while it looked a little skittish once or twice we got by in a way that was very impressive, having the two vehicles operating on the same road.

Coming back, however, I came back with a gentleman who, in my opinion, from such observation as I might discover, knew just as much, if not a little more, about his machine than the man who went in, and we passed a large number of vehicles; but we didn't pass a single one of them that its occupants didn't look until we got safely by as if they might have to get up the side of the precipitous mountain on one side or take a chance of jumping off on the other. I had to interfere once in a while myself to the great surprise of this man, who was thoroughly convinced he was going down this canyon with the greatest care. The difference in distance was only half a mile and just the way the men handled those two machines was as different as night from day. Neither one was careless, neither one had indulged in intoxicants, and yet I was impressed with the difference in the way they handled their respective machines. What is your observation?

Mr. WALKER. There is no regulation in the world that is going to prescribe—that is going at all times to cover that case; it is an individual matter. I could draw a parallel case. I have ridden in stages where the stage driver seemed to be a very dexterous and skillful driver where he has put on his brakes in time. If anything ever gave way we were gone. I have come around the same curve with another man who, when he approached this curve, decreased his speed so that when the time came to put on his brakes he was not in the necessity of using it in such a way as to relieve the possibility of accident 50 per cent. This is a personal equation that you can't deal with by regulations. There is no way you can possibly regulate the use of these stages so that one driver would throw on his brakes at a certain point in such a manner that wouldn't endanger the lives of everyone in that stage.

The SECRETARY. That is perfectly true. The problems on the automobile have not been worked on as many years as they have with the horse and carriage. You had an experience of your own in which you found the machine was lacking in some respects.

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; but I had that same experience with wagons.

The SECRETARY. What do you say as to the increase of danger in the use of automobiles and wagons where you mix the two vehicles on the same road?

Mr. WALKER. That is a difficult question to answer unless we bring to hear in mind some individual situation. It is so general.

The SECRETARY. Take it as a general thing, does the advent of the machine increase the danger in your opinion?

Mr. WALKER, Generally speaking, having in mind the increased amount of travel on the roads generally, the proportion of accidents is no greater at this day and age with the automobile and the team on the road than it was prior to the coming of the automobile. There was an intermediate period when automobiles were new, and, as our friend from Crater Lake says, it was a wonder to see two at Crater Lake. During that period there was a proportionately greater danger than at the period before they came or at this present period, but we are now at a point where the wonder is past. I say it is possible to go down this road past every team with the exception of the stage teams and not have any trouble.

Now, there is a reason for that. Stage men get young horses. They get them because they have spirit. They break them in here. Perhaps some of them have never traveled the road in any other place. They are not brought in contact with any other place, therefore they present an element which is very much like the case of the automobile and team 6, 8, or 10 years ago. But this is a condition that will have to be overcome. In order to overcome that in a park where it does exist, automobiles should go in under restriction until the horses are adapted to those conditions. There is an element that few people here realize. If it had rained heavily last night and we had automobiles, a dozen of them, in the floor of the valley, I venture to say that not half of them could get out this morning. That is a question for automobilists to consider, and that is quite apparent because there is a heavy dust condition on that one road—on the Big Oak Flat Road.

The SECRETARY. Is that the only condition under which you think we could not use that road?

Mr. WALKER. Oh, no; I spoke of the Wawona Road because I have favored it from the very start, believing it would serve to accomplish good to the greatest number of automobilists. It makes it possible for us to have an entering wedge into this valley. I have convinced just such conservative men as Col. Forsyth and yourself that it would sooner or later be a practicable thing to do. I have favored the Wawona Road because it gives us an avenue to come to Glacier Point. The last 4 miles from Inspiration Point down present very few opportunities for the passage of teams. It is a precipitous grade and a dangerous one and I fully believe before automobiles are allowed to go there, something should be done, but not that automobiles might go and come for a season or two without accident, but I do not believe the department is in position to make of little consequence the existing condition of the road. I believe it is a condition they must take notice of and I heartily agree with Col. Forsyth in his present refusal to concede that automobilists can go down that last 4 miles. He does not believe they can go so far; that is where we differ.

The SECRETARY. I do not understand that to be his position. I understand that before they come that far he thinks that the road should be improved and put in condition

Mr. WALKER. That is where we differ. I believe automobiles can come to Inspiration Point under restrictions with safety. It is possible for teams to pass in nearly every place up to that point. I have answered your question as to the proposition of accidents to-day as compared with the number of accidents that existed before the automobile came.

The SECRETARY. You told me that the percentage had not increased, in your opinion.

Mr. WALKER. I believe not.

The SECRETARY. And you think that that is an answer to my question?

Mr. WALKER. If it is not, if you will frame it so I can understand it I will try to answer in the same way.

The SECRETARY. Of course, you know what many so-called statistics are and how they are compiled. I would have to see them and know a little more about them than either of us know at the present time. I doubt the accuracy of the statement. I travel a great deal in a machine. I have a very large number of friends who have machines, and I think I am safe in saying that it is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of them that the percentage of accidents has increased due to the machine, at the present time. They are all equally confident that that will change and that it has changed very materially, but you would have to present much more reliable statistics than are available, so far as I know, before I would change my present opinion that in the present condition of things the automobile has increased the number of accidents.

Mr. WALKER. I didn't apparently understand your question. I agree with you that the number of accidents has increased in recent years, but the accidents are to the automobiles and not to those in the horse-drawn vehicles.

The SECRETARY. I wish that were true; but I could give you a long list on the other side. Unfortunately, it is not altogether true. Mr. Myers, have you statistics on hand—can't you help me with them?

Mr. MYERS. I didn't help catch this bear.

Mr. WALKER. Here is a percentage that is in favor of the automobilist.

Mr. MYERS. I have understood, Mr. Secretary—of course, it is a question whether the Secretary will take my statistics—there were more people killed last year by reason of accidents—by horse accidents, or vehicles drawn by horses—than there were on the railroads of the United States.

The SECRETARY. That may be. I don't know that it has anything to do with the case.

Mr. MYERS. There was a greater percentage of accidents by horse vehicles than by automobiles.

The SECRETARY. That still wouldn't affect the case.

Mr. MYERS. As near as I remember the case—I am not very much interested in the automobile case; I had a horse run away with me the other day—I would say from my observation that the increase in mortality or the increase in accidents as considered with the increase in the use of the automobile has not increased.

The SECRETARY. Once again, I don't think that comes within reach of the question. Of course, there is a vast increase in traffic due to the use of the automobile. Now, if you add that to the horse-drawn vehicles and say that the percentage of all the accidents is reduced, it may be perfectly true, but the question is whether the automobile has increased the total number of accidents.

Mr. MYERS. Why, certainly.

The SECRETARY. And the question is also whether or not it has increased it in such a way as to add to the danger of the person who is traveling in the horse-drawn vehicle.

Mr. MYERS. I don't think it has.

The SECRETARY. Where are the statistics upon that point? There are a lot of people traveling in automobiles now that didn't travel at all before; there are a great many more traveling because the automobile is in existence and that is an addition to our total travel, and it may be that the percentage of accidents is less than with the horse, and it may be that the automobile will ultimately supplant the horse. The question now is whether the percentage of accidents in horse-drawn vehicles has or has not been increased by the advent of the automobile—which is still not answered by any statistics or facts we have gotten so far.

Mr. MYERS. From that standpoint they have increased, because the use of the horse has decreased so rapidly.

The SECRETARY. Still, that does not touch the question. What we are getting at is this: The question in which we are interested is whether or not the introduction of the automobile in these park roads is going to increase the danger to horse-drawn vehicles, so that even if thereafter the travel by horse-drawn vehicles is decreased 50 per cent the remaining 50 per cent would have a greater chance of accident than before?

Mr. WALKER. You made the question very general in the first place. I asked you to be specific and bring some individual instance or experience.

The SECRETARY. I don't think it would be instructive to take a specific instance. What I want is the question—I will try to make it clear now—Does the advent of the automobile increase the percentage of danger to people who still persist in using that outgrown animal, the horse?

Mr. WALKER. In general, I would say no.

The SECRETARY. My impression is to the contrary. If you have any facts or information that you think would correct that impression, I would be very glad to have them.

Mr. WALKER. You asked for an opinion, not for statistics.

The SECRETARY. Your opinion must necessarily be based on something.

Mr. WALKER. I can only give you an opinion, since that is all you asked for.

The SECRETARY. I am now asking for facts: On what do you base your opinion?

Mr. WALKER. I have ridden in an automobile throughout the country for a number of years. It is a hobby of mine. I don't confine myself to any particular locality, and I drive a great deal, and I say that to-day the element of danger due to the operation of automobiles generally is no greater to the horse owner in proportion to the amount of travel on the roads than it would have been at a time when all the people on the roads were driving teams. To-day the element of danger to the horse-drawn vehicle is no greater than it would have been had an equal number of people been in transit in wagons only.

The SECRETARY. That is what you judge from, your observation?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

The SECRETARY. I am very glad to have your observation. My observation, however, does not accord with that. It seems to me perfectly apparent that the automobile has added a new danger to such vehicles as use horses that did not exist before.

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; it has.

The SECRETARY. To meet that danger, do you think, or do you not, that increased width of roads and that sort of thing is essential?

Mr. WALKER. They are not necessarily essential, but they would aid materially in an endeavor to reduce any element of danger.

The SECRETARY. Then isn't this an engineering question, to be judged in a sane and reasonable way, going over the roads and getting the exact facts as to whether or not their condition as to width, surface, and grade is such as to justify putting the automobile in and what, if any, changes we ought to make?

Mr. WALKER. I would like to call your attention to what we have in engineering—a term known as the "factor of safety." That belongs in engineering as a fundamental principle. I only ask the engineers to be a little more careful in the use of the factor of safety.

The SECRETARY. You mean a little less rigid?

Mr. WALKER. A little less rigidity in the use of the factor of safety, and a little more careful in its use, lest they absolutely debar us by reason of such conditions from traveling over these roads with our machines by asking Congress for so much money that we won't get it. That is all.

The SECRETARY. You have no quarrel with me on that.

Mr. ARANT. One day this season we had 39 automobiles in the Crater Lake Park. Now, this whole subject is new. We are new, but we have had several years' experience in Crater Lake Park in running automobiles and teams on the same road. We have never yet had a complaint or accident that I have heard of. I have myself, in one of these machines, met a team on a narrow road at a sharp turn, and we backed up the hill several hundred yards to a point were we could pass. That is always done, so far as I know. Another point on this same proposition to show that we work harmoniously—in a region where they raise wild horses and put them in the harness while they are young, and it is astonishing how they are afraid of a piece of wood at first, but half a dozen times and they are not afraid.

The SECRETARY. I think we want to hear from Mr. Colby.

Mr. COLBY. I am glad to have the opportunity of speaking a few words before this conference is over. We are glad to meet you here face to face. We have had considerable correspondence with you, but the opportunity presented of saying a few words directly, I think every one will agree, amounts to a great deal more. I am going to say a little for the club I represent, the Sierra Club, and also other mountain clubs, and clubs of a similar sort, and the relation they bear to the national park. I mentioned this to a gentleman recently, and he said, "What, are you going to blow your own horn?" I said, "Yes; I am going to blow it loud but not long," because I want the Secretary to take away a definite understanding of the relation the clubs do bear to national parks. We have been been working here for a great many years on park problems. The Sierra Club is probably as near a child of this national park as anything could possibly be. We were born as a result of that endeavor, and the publicity which John Muir and those who had foresight enough to see that this park was essential and that its preservation should take place before private monopoly had control of it and put it in such a condition that it would be impossible to include it in the national playground that resulted in its establishment.

Mr. Secretary, I don't think you would be sitting in that chair to-day if it were not for our club. The Federal Government would not be in this valley to-day if it were not for our club. We were the main instrument in bringing about the recession of the valley to the Federal Government. Mr. Muir and others of us saw it was not being properly taken care of, included as it was in the greater national park which our members had gotten established through the publicity they created and the power they brought to bear on Congress. The argument was that it was a dual government existing here, and the conflict was so great we rose up and said the Yosemite Valley should be receded to the Federal Government. We were attacked most severely. We suffered all kinds of abuse from certain sources. We managed to convince almost everyone who was open minded that that was the right thing to do, and because we insisted upon it—Mr. Muir and I went to the California Legislature lobbying, but we lobbied in a fair, open manner—were willing to tell anybody what we were there for and what we were going to do, and we convinced enough legislators, with the assistance we had from different parts of the State, that it was necessary to turn this valley back to the Federal Government, where it properly belonged. Not only is this park national, but it is international in character.

This park is the only one of its particular kind in the world, and while we are here for a few years, yet we owe a duty to the whole world and we will have that international mind that President Butler spoke of at the late Mohawk conference, where he said we should have an open mind and realize we are living in this world with all the different nations existing side by side and that we owe a duty to them all, and it is the same way with this park and this valley and everything that is in this park. We should have in view the rights of the people which the whole world have in coming here. Now, we have done other things along the same lines. I simply have given that for an illustration. Whenever an appropriation for the Yosemite comes up we try in any way we possibly can to bring to bear upon Congressmen—we influence our own Congressmen strongest, and they are certainly of that frame of mind; but we have tried to bring to bear upon the appropriations—and though Senator Curtin believes he was instrumental in getting that extra $30,000 for the Yosemite Park this year, we got our board of trade and our chamber of commerce to telegraph to our Congressmen and as many others as we could reach, and got our friends in the East to do the same thing. I think we had some small part in securing that $30,000. We are familiar with the whole Sierra from one end to the other—all these parks. We have 1,500 members now. Their families and friends feel our club is the club to which they can appeal when anything goes wrong. If the trails need to be put into condition or there is a part of the mountain region that requires improvement, they call upon us first to try to help them; so, in a way, we are an instrument standing between the Government and the people.

Out here locally we occupy that peculiar position which I can best illustrate by a brief story. There was a graduate of Yale came out West. He wanted a little California western life and thought it would be a good idea to live on a farm for a year or so. So he called on a farmer to whom he was directed for a position. The farmer said, "All right. See those sheep out there on the hill slopes? Go out there and watch those sheep and drive them into this corral this evening." So he went out, and when evening came around the fellow didn't appear. The farmer got a little scared and a little later, along toward 8, it was pitch dark, he took his lantern and went out toward the corral. He found the fellow out there in a very exhausted condition, his tongue hanging out of his mouth. The farmer asked what the trouble was and he said, "Those confounded sheep; I can get those in the corral all right, but I can't get in myself. I have put lots in the corral, but there are a lot more out on the hill." There in one corner of the corral, huddled together, they found a half a dozen jackrabbits. It points this proposition, that we out here approach the actual conditions which exist because we are on the ground, and we are in a position to present those facts and try to do it to the best of our ability. In our publication—and ours is the only publication that takes the same interest and pays the same attention to national parks—we publish all we can, everything the Secretary of the Interior says, every word of wisdom that drops from his lips, we try to catch and publish in this magazine; also the different park superintendents.

The SECRETARY. Do you spend as much each year as the gentleman spent on the road to Coulterville?

Mr. COLBY. A good deal more than that. Those publications reach a great deal further with a small expenditure. We are trying to educate the people of this country with relation to national parks. If it had not been for us Yosemite recession would not have occurred. Mr. Muir was the great controlling factor, but he is the president of our club and it was only through the instrumentality of our club and the literature we published and spread abroad that we were able to educate the people and make them realize it was the proper thing to do, and, as I think, time has proven it is justified, although we are still subjected to criticism. Senator Curtin is confident that if this valley had remained in the control of the State that with his power in the State legislature and the influence of the automobilists in the State legislature that he could have put automobiles in the floor of this valley at any moment. We are blamed because automobile men are kept out. We hope they will be able to come in when the time comes, because we think the automobile adds a great zest to travel and we are primarily interested in the increase of travel to these parks.

The SECRETARY. You represent the Sierra Club, and I see Mr. Muir is here. You have personally been over this valley a great many times. You are familiar with these roads. You say that the position of the Sierra Club is that the automobile ought to be admitted when the proper time comes. Do you think the time has come?

Mr. COLBY. I think it is very close at hand. I feel, as far as the Glacier Point proposition is concerned, that automobiles should be allowed to go as far as Glacier Point with perhaps that thousand dollar expenditure, and as far as coming down into the valley is concerned, that we should rely upon engineering reports, because naturally when it comes to turn-outs and the erection of barriers and so on to prevent the machines from going over, you should exercise every precaution, but with the construction of these turnouts and the construction of these walls in the most dangerous places automobiles could be safely allowed to come to this valley at the present time.

The SECRETARY. Another fundamental question is also involved. What do you think of the joint use of the roads by automobiles and horses as compared with the countersuggestions as to a separate road?

Mr. COLBY. I believe in joint use. The cost of construction of a separate road is too great, and it is an obstacle which we can not overcome. I think the testimony given here by Mr. Marshall and Mr. Curtis and by yourself regarding these difficult mountain roads over which you have ridden, and also the Kings River Road, over which an automobile stage climbs daily, illustrates it. If we take parallel conditions we don't find accidents. We must take parallel conditions. We find the same conditions on Market Street if a driver gets drunk or his machine gets wrecked as we do anywhere in the mountains. It doesn't matter where he is. I think I have about covered what I have to say—maybe a word or two more.

We want to cooperate in every way possible with the Interior Department. I don't know when I had a feeling of greater pleasure than when I received the communication from Mr. Ucker and the publications of the department, which show the department was taking an active interest in these parks and was intent upon seeing that the people realized what they had to enjoy and that they were taking a share of the burden which we had assumed and which we were trying to bring about in our publications by spreading the information all over the world. We send to every club in foreign countries as well as in this country. The time is so short I will eliminate most of what I intended to say and simply close by stating that while we may seem impractical to some, and I wish the Forest Service men were here, for, while some of them are members of our club and we work in great harmony, I think they have the idea that we are too great idealists and want to preserve everything if we can—that we would take the whole world and shut the Forest Service out. We are just as jealous of allowing territory to be included in national parks which should not be included as we are in including territory which should be preserved in national parks, because we realize that all territory which should not be included in a national park weakens the park when there is reason for it being outside.

We wish to make our position as impregnable as possible. In this matter of extension of national parks we certainly are going to be as cautious as anyone could be in examining the reasons for such extension. We had the very great good fortune the other day of giving a dinner to Ambassador Bryce on his way through San Francisco, returning from Australia, and it was one of the most enjoyable dinners I ever attended. He is president of the English Alpine Club, and is as interested in the natural wonder lands as anyone in the world. He told us that he felt that if we could educate our children to love the things of nature, teach them what nature has to teach, take them out there to see that they understood the trees and flowers and plants, and then, as they grew older, to take them up in the mountains and make them mountain climbers and lovers of the mountains and these wonderful national parks, that that would do more good than all the statutes the legislature could pass in creating a spirit of morality and in raising the moral tone of this country.

The SECRETARY. Mr. Colby, I may say that if on account of the shortness of time you have been compelled to omit anything, that this will be written up and revised and you may add such matters as you desire and as would be appropriate.

Mr. COLBY. There is one point; our club has been in a way the guardian of these parks—the self-appointed guardian, as it were—because we feel that the Federal Government has need of our help, and we are here to watch for any encroachments; and let me say that since the park was created, if it had not been for the watchfulness of our club at times that this park would have been torn to tatters and very little learned as to this valley.

Mr. PARSONS. Mr. Secretary, ladies, and gentlemen, I am representing the mountaineers and also the Sierra Club. I have a little further to add to what Mr. Colby and Mr. Muir have already said. What they have said has perfectly and completely set forth the attitude of these clubs. There are, however, a few concrete suggestions that have occurred to me. I have been waiting since the beginning of this meeting for a certain class and their opportunities and rights to be mentioned. We are discussing at great length the automobilists. We have been discussing the ordinary traveler, who has money to come and go; but nobody has said a word for the shopgirl, working for $8 or $10 or $12 a week, and the clerk who may get $12 or $15 a week, and has a beggarly week or 10 days or less.

Now, these parks ought to be open to them. They can be opened to them easily on certain conditions. If arrangements were made whereby the transportation companies, on dates of holidays, and on proper occasions, should give excursion rates to that class of people, and if the concessioners in the valley who have the hotel concessions were required as a part of their concession and a consideration for such concession, to place in the Little Yosemite and the Tuolumne Meadows, say, at first, and later on by Lake Washburn and Lake Tenaya, chalets where ordinary meals of the plainest and most moderate expense could be provided, then any one of meager means could get in here for a week end or a few days, with a blanket, and enjoy this magnificent region and have a grand holiday and go home having had a magnificent outing. Those things are done in foreign countries. Germany and Austria have an organization of 125,000, to say nothing of disorganized walkers, and France has over 200,000.

Mr. MARTIN. If you will permit me just a moment in order that there may be spread on the minutes of this conference an expression of the desire of Seattle and Tacoma that this conference next year be held in the Rainier National Park. I quite appreciate that this conference can not settle the matter at this time. We feel, however, that in logic and the geography of things that Rainier National Park is entitled to the next meeting, and further than that, Mr. Secretary, in the utmost frankness, we want to say that we want the meeting because we need the good that it can do. The situation is much the same that was presented to me in a visit to Washington at one time in a remark which Speaker Reed made. We went to secure an appropriation for one of our expositions and we were very much afraid of Mr. Reed, and a small committee of us were sent to meet and conquer him first. He heard our story, the desire for an appropriation, and very much to our surprise he said, "Gentlemen, I am with you, and I will give you my help, and I will say this, that you are the first committee that I have ever seen here in Washington from the Southern States, coming here in an appeal in your 'interests.' Others have come here always in an appeal for their 'rights.'"

Now, Mr. Secretary, Seattle and Tacoma have been quarreling a long time over their "rights." Now, sir, we have come together and we propose to present what we believe to be our interests in the matter and to present them solidly. We have heretofore been in that position that even our own Congressmen shied away from actual support because they were afraid of offending. Now, we are together, and since we are together and present this solid working force, we appeal to the department to give us this opportunity of closer touch and better information with large conditions. We hope it will be possible next year for the conference to meet in the Rainier National Park.

Mr. STEEL. Mr. Secretary, I would like to add, for the city of Portland, for the city of Medford, and for Crater Lake, a good hearty second to this invitation.

The SECRETARY. Well, now, some time ago, through the generosity of an individual, there was something that approached a fitting recognition of the work and life of the distinguished member of the Sierra Club who addressed us yesterday, in the creation of the Muir Woods National Monument, and perhaps, Mr. Dezendorf has something to tell us about that particular reservation or national monument.

Mr. DEZENDORF. Mr. Secretary, it is my honor to have charge of the national monument which it was deemed wise to name after the distinguished gentleman, the president of the Sierra Club, Mr. John Muir. This monument is situated between a broad expanse of the Pacific Ocean and the Golden Gate City, which welcomes the world to the Panama-Pacific Exposition in 1915. It has been my fortune or misfortune to have had charge in the past of the national monuments in the State of Arizona, and while we have not had any appropriation from Congress for the protection of the national monuments, yet we are expected to do so, and I fail to see why Congress can not understand that it is necessary to have appropriations to protect from destruction or depredation the beauties of the national monuments as well as the parks. I can see no distinction between the two, unless it is that the national monuments are so wonderful and so beautiful that they feel they can not destroy them. The beauties of this park and the others have been described here, but the Grand Canyon of Arizona is beyond description. The tongue of man can not describe it properly. The national monument, the Petrified Forest of Arizona, contains the oldest dead, but once alive things that exist, the petrified trees, which are millions of years old, as I understand from Mr. Muir, who has inspected them, and the Muir Woods National Monument contains some of the oldest living and most beautiful things in the world. I refer to the majestic trees there—the redwoods. But from actual personal experience it is now impossible to properly protect these beautiful national monuments, and I hope Congress will see the necessity of providing for the protection of these monuments at an early date. I thank you and invite you to hold the meeting in 1915 in the Muir Woods National Monument near the exposition city.

The SECRETARY. Now is there anything further that any person wishes to call to my attention before we adjourn?

Mr. PILLSBURY. Just a word, Mr. Secretary. It has only been my pleasure to visit four of these national parks. I would very much like to see some of the others. Next to that I would like to see pictures of them. I was greatly entertained by seeing some of the Yellowstone. I offer as a suggestion that the different ones bring pictures of their parks that we may all gather what information we can of the things we are never to see ourselves.

The SECRETARY. That brings to my mind a suggestion that possibly has some value. I don't know. It is, that there ought to be in the different park hotels collections of pictures of the other parks; advertise the other parks that they in turn advertise you. Perhaps that will be of some value.

Mr. MCSTAY. I would like to just emphasize slightly what Mr. Walker said in regard to the technical side of this proposition. I have the greatest admiration and respect for the Army officer and the Army engineer. Is it fair to take the attitude and position of our good friend, Col. Forsyth, and expect him to absolutely forego his lifelong association with the horse? Is it a fair proposition? Is there not a middle ground that is fair to all of us?

The SECRETARY. Let me try to make clear to you again that I do not intend, necessarily, to follow the advice of Col. Forsyth or Capt. Whitman. I intend to do what I said before. I intend to get from your engineer his report as soon as I can get it and I intend to have Col. Forsyth and his engineers check it, and then I intend under my official obligation to decide as between any points of difference which may then still exist what I think should be done. If it is necessary to enable me to decide it intelligently to have some one else examine it who is not representing either you or the Army engineers, this will be done. What I am after is the facts, and I am going to be just as critical in examination of the gentlemen opposed to the automobile as I have been in examining those in favor of them.

Mr. MCSTAY. The Automobile Club of Southern California, when the Secretary gets to the certain point where his hands are tied—it is going to take money—let me tell you that we are a live organization—not only our southern California people, but California is full of live organizations who are in a position to assist the Secretary in securing these funds, which are absolutely necessary. You put the question to us or made the statement that it would probably be necessary for that $40,000 road. I understand Capt. Whitman's position. Capt. Whitman knows that that lower road is the natural, practical, scenic road. He knows that the expenditure of $40,000 will open up the highest grades of the mountains of the Sequoia Park and he doesn't want to temporize. He wants the proper road opened. I believe he has got the proposition, and I want to say that if the Department of the Interior will avail itself of what assistance we can give in securing the necessary legislation, we will be very glad to take it up good and strong.

The SECRETARY. Don't use that "if." The department will welcome your assistance. I said in the beginning and all the way through that that is what we want. Get busy.

With that we will adjourn.